Meeting in _ONLINE Class_Tuesday 18h00-20h00_-20230926_180731-Meeting Recording

September 26, 2023, 8:07AM

28m 51s

621792274320Jane Frank started transcription

576072292608Jane Frank 0:03OK, welcome to week 10.Of family business management.We have quite a lot in store tonight. Most importantly, we have a guest speaker tonight. So very kindly, Mr Andreas Risinger, who works for a well known family food manufacturer, is going to be with us to talk about his 30 plus years experience of working in a multitude of family businesses as a non family member in senior position.Which really fits in well with our topic tonight in Week 10, which is nepotism and non family members in the family business. So it couldn't be on a better evening Andrea. So thank you so very much for joining us and feel welcome to share your screen as well if you'd like.

576072292608Andreas Reisinger 0:48What?Alright, just just give me a moment.Right. And I and I hope I hope.

576072292608Jane Frank 1:00Perfect.

576072292608Andreas Reisinger 1:04No.No, that's not it.I do apologise. All right, so I I hope that.That you can see the screen.

576072292608Jane Frank 1:21Yes, we can. That's great. Thank you. Excellent. Yes.

576072292608Andreas Reisinger 1:22Excellent, excellent. So how how are you? Good evening. So so.I so so my. My name's Andreas and I've been working for family companies but also for corporates in a senior position and it is, it is very interesting if you are in a senior position in a in a established family company.Because you're sort of in a senior position and you are sort of in the in but.Sometimes you are in the out because sort of.Families and family companies make up their own rules as they go, so so here we are so.I.And.Alright. And did it jump to the next slide by any chance or?

576072292608Jane Frank 2:14Yeah, everything's fine. Andreas. That looks good.

576072292608Andreas Reisinger 2:16Excellent, excellent. So I I I want to put a disclaimer on and and and so I'm not an academic, I haven't written any books over it, so about this. So I this is purely my personal experience and I've worked for for a number of family businesses and the examples I I bring are from from either of them.And and these are purely my personal experience and observations. So so if if if this happens to be contrary to your experience or to any research, then then.That's just how it is, so I'm just sharing my experience and and what I want to do is sort of go through sort of a few headings and see see where I see the differences and where I see the the the pitfalls which which can happen so family business have got very much sort of.Ferry business have very much sort of a different feel and.Feel and culture, so it's it's it's usually corporate. It's sort of a.Establish sort of internal structure where in family businesses is much more fluent, so in much more likely that you are appointed to a role and that you are act in multiple roles.Simply because that is where somebody's needed in in on short notice and and where somebody is near. So in family businesses or the the wording of no, this is not my job or no. Somebody else needs to do that is is sort of less likely to.To fly and where suddenly as a as a professional in in production you where HR had simply because you have got the most experience in in in that so.The the other thing is sort of it. It has got also a very different feel in terms of family history. So usually the family history is linked very much to the to the.Values and to the ideas of the founder. So if you are suddenly find yourself in the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th generation, then there's a lot of quoting the original values and the original ideas of of the founder. And that is sort of something which sort of the the history of that of that.Business is is based on the pitfalls are very much sort of the Word family means different things to different people.So, so not everybody wants to have a very close family feel at work. So there are some people who who like to have the differentiation between work is work and family's family, and that is something where where.Maybe a pitfall and it needs to be very carefully managed in a family business that you say that we are all family and you're all part of the family because that can very much have pitfalls in it.The next one is is is.The decision making process, so in corporates you have got usually a much longer decision making process. You need to convince your manager which brings it to the executive which may bring it to the board.Usually sort of a lot of stakeholders are involved in this one. Reports are written and and.And the decisions are usually fact based based on on the merits of the project.Where in family business it it sometimes it's a very, very quick and UN bureaucratic decision.The family sees that something needs to be done. A new piece of equipment needs to be bought and the decision is made almost instantaneous because it's it's something which which is very obvious, that it needs to be done.However, again it comes with pitfalls and at times decisions are made around the kitchen table and.Where family members come together at at dinner and say that, hey, what about this? And what about this? And then next morning you come to work and the decision is is is made and and you have been involved to a lesser extent than you expected.The other one is that again a time sort of decisions can be made and and it's more aligned with the gut feel of the owner rather than fact based decisions so.I've been working in the wine industry and we were working for weeks and months on on.On.Scoping and tendering and proposing a new bottling line, which is sort of multimillion dollars and sort of each equipment needs to mesh up and needs to fit with the other. And I've been in a position where it was all signed off and then in the very last moment, the senior owner who is supposedly already retired.Sort of had a look at the proposal and then sort of announce that, oh, yeah, now you're proposing A-75 head filler and the neighbouring winery just bought an 80 head filler. So I want an 85 head filler and it's purely based on the gut feel on the pride of the owner on on that. He wants to be better than the neighbour. It doesn't fit with any of the other equipment you selected and and the decision was was overturned in in a matter of of seconds and.And suddenly we found ourselves in, in, in a position where we had to start from scratch and and redo the entire proposal and technical side.Relationship is something which is very, very important and very different at at on corporate level you are more likely to find outcome focused relationships. So relationships are strong as long as as they advantage your advantages you in one way or the other and business decisions are made with suppliers around tendering around.The benefits that bring to each other.In family businesses, it's very, very usual that you're going out for tender and suddenly the owner says that, ah, no, no. I've got a friend in that business and he will look after you and just go with XYZ and he will look after you. And he was somebody who you either never even considered to begin with in the tendering process or according to your.Own matrix wouldn't have finished in in on top position of of that.So so it is it is again something where you have to be vigilant and where you have to be prepared to argue the point.And and where businesses simply work differently in that regards.

576072292608Jane Frank 9:38Andreas, I don't think your slides are moving.

576072292608Andreas Reisinger 9:41Sorry, say again.

576072292608Jane Frank 9:42But have you been moving the slides or have you? Oh, well, it's still on. It's still on feel and culture.

576072292608Andreas Reisinger 9:44Yes, I have. Sorry. Yes I have.Alright, alright then let me.

576072292608Jane Frank 9:49I'm just saying, if you if they'll move.

576072292608Andreas Reisinger 9:52Let me have a look.

576072292608Jane Frank 9:54It's not the end of the world, actually, it doesn't. You know, like we're listening to what you've got to say anyway.

576072292608Andreas Reisinger 9:55Alright.Alright.

576072292608Jane Frank 10:05They moved yesterday fine so.

576072292608Andreas Reisinger 10:07Yeah, I'm. I'm I'm not 100% sure why they don't move. So let me have one more try.

576072292608Jane Frank 10:16Don't worry, there's plenty of time.

576072292608Andreas Reisinger 10:30By moving now to decision making.

576072292608Jane Frank 10:33No, it's still on field culture. Don't don't worry too much. I just thought I'd let you know. Just so you know that. But it's it's we've because we've got the slides in the other recording as well, but it's just so you knew that was happening.

576072292608Andreas Reisinger 10:38Yeah, it's, it's, it's.No it it's.

576072292608Jane Frank 10:54No, it's stuck.

576072292608Andreas Reisinger 10:55It's it's stuck on on that slide.Well, then I I do apologise.

576072292608Jane Frank 11:01I don't worry, it's your fault.It's just something technical.You can just. Yeah, it's moving now. Yeah, it's moving now. Yeah. Yeah, it's fine.

576072292608Andreas Reisinger 11:13We.No, I've no sorry, alright.Decision making sort of the we went through relationship. The next one is is is the the planning horizon.Very, very different at corporate. Usually looks for short term goals and usually companies are getting better and and after the Banking Royal Commission and a few other scandals, sort of.The short of incentives for executives have been replaced by short term incentive and long term incentives, but there's still.Propensity to look at short term goals and just very recently what happened with Qantas and some of the issues which were Qantas were undoubtedly caused by by.Short term goals being sort of well and truly.Sort and the long term goals haven't really been been focused on where in family business it's. It's sometimes looking for generational goals. So sometimes investments are made with the idea that that it probably won't benefit me as the owner, but it will benefit the next generation or even the next generation. And if you're an agriculture, then that's sort of very.Very.Obvious when you are looking at a wood lot which needs 304050 years to grow.In a corporate organisation you would sort of never really see a payback where in family businesses, that's something which which?Is is paid that that it's important to to have got long term goals which will benefit the children or the grandchildren.The senior staffing and this is sort of where where comes the today's topic comes very much into forefront the nepotism.In in corporate world, appointments are usually based on merit and and chosen on ability.Where not every but many family businesses are putting family members or close friends or in laws into into senior positions, and they're not always based on ability or suitability. So. So I've been part of organisation where.Three brothers.Of working actively in the business and one of them were very obviously not suitable or not not able to perform that task and he was still left in that senior executive position because it's it's one of the brothers and and you couldn't not do it. And depending on how it's set up, it becomes sort of sometimes sort of a very interesting power play which is an external person you see.Where in in some cases the family member have got boards aborting rights on boards.And the board disappointing the CEO and as soon as you as the sibling are losing your your senior position because you're simply not suitable for that. You still have got a voting right and.Then the CEO might be under pressure to give you a job because he knows that.If you don't have that job, then then you're as in the CE OS position becomes very interesting and may not be full of longevity. So so here the nepotism is is very, very strong and they are family companies where you have got 678 family members.On senior staff, which is also interesting for the next level of non family member, because sooner or later they will hit the glass ceiling and.

576072292608Jane Frank 15:24Yeah.

576072292608Andreas Reisinger 15:27Have got nowhere to go and it is very unlikely that any of the family member ever resigned because they have positions for life.That that leads to the next one, the succession planning again.The nepotism is, is something which is, which is very, very.Prolific in family businesses, but it also gives sort of interesting other dynamics. If if the principle for example is getting divorced and the family assets are being split up or the share.Been been redistributed after a divorce or even in case of death of a family member. So. So it it it throws up interesting dynamic there where if if.Principle is is passing away, then the next generation might not be ready to step into that that position. But realistically there is nobody else so so it it gives gives a bit of of of dynamic which which.People need to be aware of and and preferably need to plan for these eventualities.The next one is is sort of the the corporate governance. It's usually at a corporate level you have got.Staff which have got professional distance and corporate governance is followed much closer, so there have been studies where where the very close ties to the family makes it difficult for somebody to to whistle blow.To to act in a in a professional, responsible manner.On corporate side, you have got board which are usually.Manned or with with external non executive directors who who have got sort of a remote view and an oversight where some family boards simply only have family members there which doesn't give you that professional distance.And that is.Greater possibility of of illicit behaviour amongst close net workers and and keeping things under wrap just to to make sure that the family and the wider sense is not not harmed.So as I said, it's it's I've, I've, I've worked for corporates. I've worked for family businesses. If the family business is set up right and if there is a external oversight, and if it's if, it's if, it's if there is that professional.Differentiation family businesses for me personally is is very much.Preferred and I like. I like the quick and flexible approach.I like the the.Family fortune being been grown and and I like working for for somebody where I see where, where that profit is going rather than than the shareholders on the most recent Stock Exchange, which I've got no relationship with.But it's it's very much personal preference and and as as somebody who like like.You who?May be building up a family business. I think it's very important to to make sure that there is sort of that, that professional line and the corporate governance and the set up of the family business is sort of very much important to to do right. So this is sort of my little excursion of my, my.Experiences. And so if you have got enough time, I'm very happy to to answer some questions.

576072292608Jane Frank 19:25Yeah, I'm interested to know. You've obviously had a very successful career and you've worked in family businesses. What what can you do to make yourself most successful in family businesses? I mean, are the same skill sets required to do well career wise, that they would be in corporate or do you think you need other skills are there?

576072292608Andreas Reisinger 19:46I I I I I think I think one of the main skills in a family business is is that you are self assured to stand up. It's much much harder to stand up to the owner and to have a have a heated discussion about something and I mean heated discussion in a very positive sense.But to to challenge the the idea of of of a of a principle is much, much harder in a family business than it is in a corporate in a corporate world, it's almost expected that that on around the board table that you're having heated discussions and and sort of stamped the the table and and have got a heated discussion where in in a family business you need to have some.Kind of personality where you are able to stand up and you're not just simply saying yes to everything because it comes from the principle. So I think that's that's one of the main thing which which on the day the principle might walk away and and say that that ayah it's it's it's really my way or the highway. But in the long run I feel that.Professional challenge to to ingrained thinking is is very, very important and and you don't get that.In family businesses where you usually get that in corporate offices.

576072292608Jane Frank 21:16Yeah. So when you go to work for a family business, what are the things that would make it appealing to you to work there? What are the kinds of things that a senior level that would, you know, in make it a really attractive proposition for you?

576072292608Andreas Reisinger 21:32For me, for me is is, is probably two things is is the the treatment of the staff where where in family businesses again in some family businesses. But the one I've worked for it was very much prevalent that that staff is being seen as not an extension of the family but but in some ways as an extension of the family and it was sort of very interesting and especially during COVID time where.

576072292608Jane Frank 21:58Mm hmm.

576072292608Andreas Reisinger 22:03Family businesses were were looking out for the staff and saying that that yes, it is. It is hard for all of us, but let's share the pain here where I've heard from other companies who got the absolute maximum of benefits and job keeper and job seeker and all that pocketed it all had basically two years running the biggest possible profit and the staff were very much suffering.And sort of that treatment of staff is something which I I value.Again, their family businesses who are doing it this way and this way and I'm sort of very conscious about about selecting a business who is is treating staff.With respect and and.SS on a high stand, the other one I I do like the the.The flexibility.And the the.Speed of decisions it's it's something which which sometimes it's very, very obvious that you need to do sort of that. You need to do something and it may take you two or three months to to work out exactly what you're doing it, but then you are in corporate world trying to convince that it needs to be done when family businesses, if you have a chat with the with the principal and say that all right.Let's let's let's have a discussion. Let's take it as given that we need to do something and then you can concentrate on exactly the details of what you're doing. But you're not starting from scratch. You're already starting halfway.Where you are basically already understanding that that something needs to be done and it's it's. So there are the two things which which I I very much enjoy as a probably close third.Is the is the also the variety of tasks so. So in a corporate world you are in supply chain and supply chain is very much where you are and there is somebody else who's sitting next to you. However, in family businesses, usually you do get involved in in other areas and human resources in finance in in sales where you have got much, much more a thing on the pulse of what's happening.

576072292608Jane Frank 24:35Yeah, that's great. Thank you. That's really helpful. And I guess things like managing conflict in the family business, I imagine as a non family member you have maybe been in situations where that might have happened. Do is it important not to take sides or how do you deal with differences between family members when you're a non family member?

576072292608Andreas Reisinger 24:55And and and I've. I've been in a in a company where family members had a very different view of the world. And I think for me it has always worked to be yourself. And I know it sounds like a cliche, but.To not take sides purely based on on like or dislike of the individuals, but very much be true to yourself and I'm a.Very analytical person who who goes by numbers and and figures and that has very much in my last 30 years helped me to to not take sides and to take my own view and to argue for what I believe is right. And sometimes I end up on this person's side. Sometimes I end up on that person's side. But I think it's it's it's.Not not what? What the business needs, nor what you want is by by aligning yourself with one or the other side and and being a yes Sayer, because then that that healthy conflict is missing.And by not challenging ideas, I think a very important part of business is missing.Alright so my my screen is frozen now.So my screen is frozen so I'm not 100% sure if it's me.Alright.Then let me do something in case it's me.

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576072292608Andreas Reisinger 27:37My my screen is frozen and I can't log in anymore.

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Meeting in _ONLINE Class_Tuesday 18h00-20h00_-20230926_120557-Meeting Recording

September 26, 2023, 2:05AM

34m 4s

621792274320Jane Frank started transcription

576072292608Phoebe Preuss - Living Koko (Guest) 0:06Go. Yeah.

576072292608Jane Frank 0:06I'm just make sure that. OK, so you're now being recorded. I might actually just read that out again for the people listening because they didn't get to hear that. So we're very, very lucky to this morning to have Phoebe Pruce with us from living Poco living. Coco is an Australian company producing small batch food, beverage and body products made from Kiko, sourced by independent small plot farmers in Samoa and other Pacific islands. Their focus is on creating high quality, indulgent and nutritious products with their range.Including delicious rich chocolate bars restaurant and calming drinking cacao and teas.Of alcohol free to Co beer and luscious skin and body products, their products are handmade in Melbourne, Australia and showcase the versatility and potential of KOCO and the incredible power it has to heal and nourish the human body inside and out. They believe in retaining the purity and goodness of our organic cake with their products sustainably and ethically produced and free from preservatives. Artificially ingredients, ingredients, allergens and animal products. Established in 2014, Living Cocoa is owned.My husband and wife Team Glen Reese and Phoebe Pruss, Phoebe and Glenn, is supported by a team of dedicated Coco loving staff in the company's home base in Melbourne, Australia, and a network of independent small clock KO farmers in Samoa and Papua New Guinea. I'll hand over to you Phoebe, thank you.

576072292608Phoebe Preuss - Living Koko (Guest) 1:29Thanks, Jane.Tullafett all of a.People of the Coolin nations I come with my head bowed and my heart in my hand and with my ancestors behind me to give my acknowledgement and appreciation to the lands that we get to do our work on here in Australia, which is raundi country of the cooling nations.My name is Phippet and there is a saying in Samoa which goes our ancestors bodies nourish our lands and their spirits live on within us.And it sounds like ortal to.Or all allow us silo for Nua Soifu or lato Anganga E lay on MUA eta to.Our ancestors bodies nourish our lands in their spirits, live on within us.And I say that before I talk because it reminds me that the cacao that we get the lands have actually nourished well our ancestors borrow bodies actually buried amongst those cacao plants and trees and.And our families have been in cacao for many generations, so their spirits definitely live on within us. So even though we have AI, guess, you know the business structure of a western space, we are definitely.Deeply connected to our aying, our families and the way we do work in business back home. So it takes up to three years for a cache to mature enough to grow her own fruits and growing her own seeds and with the right care and relationship, she has the capacity to produce her fruits till she reaches about 100 years of age.The importance of her relationships start from the moment that she is planted, so I'm a Samoan indigenous woman, an entrepreneur.And I actually want to acknowledge all the relationships through space and time that position me in my own journey within my business and also within our space in Samoa. So we get I get to activate my cultural identity and connect myself to my Pacific homelands. And I realise that it's my ongoing responsibility to ensure that all the kinships that are touched by our businesses are approached with their respect and reciprocity and a shared valued approach and these kinships and values.Actually, what currently guides our worker or our canoe with living Coco? So I got a message yesterday saying to.If I could say connect the Sdgs of the United Nations to our business. And so I quickly looked it up this morning, I knew I'd researched it a little while ago, but I thought I'd mention a few. And then as I do my presentation, you can see where these themes kind of weave into our business. So we focus on.No poverty, 0 hunger.Good health, gender equality and the responsible consumption and production within our business, but also.You know, clean water, affordable, clean energy, economical growth, climate action, life on water and life on land are also, I guess, offshoots or woven into.The reactions from the way we do business and the way we connect with our people back home.So myself and my husband Glenn founded living Coco, and we actually wanted to create a trade and not aid approach to the Pacific islands. We're now the largest importers of cacao, from Samoa to Australia, and when we started I was in a chocolate maker. I was a performing artist that ran indigenous festivals in NT and here in Australia and Melbourne, so making chocolate was the last thing on my mind.But I used. Well, my family have been in cacafo for generations and so.The indigenous cultivation of Kikow has always kind of come naturally for me, and it's something that I gained I guess, through osmosis of just living on the land. So our manufacturing spaces here based in Ravenhall, which is in Melbourne and it's a zero way solar powered space, we focus on drinking cacao, dark chocolate, cacao husk tea and non alk beer and a skin care range. Of course everything made from cacao and everything is packaged with.Home compostable, biodegradable, biodegradable or recyclable? Where?So we wanna create like delicious cacao creations that are good for you but also gentle on the planet and have just recently been named a finalist in the Clean and Conscious Awards and also in the Melton Business Awards for Sustainability. So our cacao farmers and our business are also poor nor slavery certified. And we just want to create like inclusive products that are vegan and elegy safe. So we started working with Tinfarms actually I started when.We went to Samuel looking for a trade and not aid approach. I didn't realise it was going to be cacao. I had recently been teaching scuba diving in Samoa and I thought yeah, maybe I'll go back and teach some more diving or.Underwater conservation and things like that and everyone that we approached kept telling us it was cacao. So my grandfather and great grandfather have been.Leaders in cacao for many generations and I guess Coco is in my blood. Coco is a word for cacao.Is also our word for blood, so naming our business living Coco was like.Calling it the.You know the ongoing stories of our bloodlines, the ongoing journey of our bloodlines. And so, yeah, living Coco was birthed out of just wanting to do something good back home.So we came back with like 2 kilos on a plane not knowing how to make chocolate and.Bought a melanger and and slowly figured it out. Made our first 3 kilos of it.It tasted pretty good and then?Now then, we worked with 10 cacao farmers and now we work with over 400 domestic plot farmers, predominantly women farmers and small microfamily businesses in the Pacific. And it's through deep relationships with community leaders. And also we've run sustainability projects back in Sam War on the ground. So it's through these projects that I guess word has gone out that.Where we're good to trade with.We're continuously showing up to the space and we're not just one hit wonders from the West.So our organisation living Coco is immersed in family and Sam Wood history and my ancestors and families still to this day use traditional ways of cult cultivating cacao, ensuring that Papa. So Papa's are word for Mother Earth. So Papa is supported and knowing that in turn, if we honour the land, that there is great reciprocity in that space.And a spiritual potency which we call manna, that connects us deeply to our fanua or to our custodial lands. So from the beginning, I guess cacao was like.Speaking about any other family member growing up in Samoa, one that we really cared about deeply.Growing up in a family of cacao cultivators, the essence of conversations were you know, how can we grow more resilient plants.How are external factors affect us affecting the growth of our cacao?As I said before, it the cow trees can grow for it to up to and fruit for up to 100 years so.Raising Cork or takes a lot of maturity and patience and appreciation and.My grandfather, he was the high chief of not just my village, but our whole district. And he also worked for an organisation called Whistec. Whistec was a company that was exporting a lot of the cacao from Samoa through the from the German plantations and him being the high chief. He was able to activate.Many more villages to go caca but also make sure that our people got a really good price for it.Umm.And that's, I guess what we continue and always wanna do. Like our authenticity lies in understanding the genesis of our product where it comes from, whose hands have supported the creation of it and the reasons why we have this business is also because we want to make sure that the whole value chain feels supported and honoured.We're completely transparent about our practises and our business models. Having worked walked first hand, the journey from seed to community gives us a deeper understanding of climate change challenges, post harvesting, processing techniques and the fastar more way, which is the Samoan way of life.This transparency also opens up Tylenol with our farming community.On the true cost of living and the monetary worth of our cacao, this transparency also builds trust within our team here in Australia, but also our team in Samoa and with our farming community and with all those that enjoy our cacao.So we're a zero waste manufacturing space. We use all the components of the bean here in Australia, but also in Samoa. The cacao pods are used in a mulch for planting seeds. The cacao leaves are leaved left at the trunk at the base of the trees and they self composting. It creates like a natural pesticide and then after we roast the beans here in Australia we use the bottle which is the skin of the bean for our cacao tea and our skin care range. And we also use.The inner part of the beam for all our chocolates and drinking cacao, so no part of the bean goes to waste here.With cacao that's unfit for consumption, like sometimes I over roast, sometimes it's not a good battery. Cacao, we've we started the skin care range called cocoa smooth. So this allowed us to engage with more to small Pacific plot farmers sourcing different ingredients, different medicinal oils.And all the profits to our cookals move range go towards assisting small platforms in their post harvesting processes and infrastructures.But to successfully navigate our cornerstone businesses practises, we actually had to.Implement a Pacific island concept called Telenoa. I don't know if anyone knows the word telenoor, but it's a word that is used across the Pacific to reflect a process of.Inclusive participatory and transparent dialogue. So I guess coming together and sharing stories that build trust and empathy and help us make decisions for the collective good.So a business meeting in Samoa is not, you know, a normal business meeting that you'd have here in Australia where you'd, you know, in Australia, it feels like you connect with people for half an hour an hour and it can feel really transactional. We're in some more when we go for a business meeting, it could take a day and it's through a day or half a day or 4 hours. It's a couple of meals. It's.Deep conversation of understanding where our farmers or where our post harvesting processes are at.It's through spending this amount of time with everyone that we do get to understand what the climate change issues are. You know the the changes within our soils.We've learned that you know, when I was growing up in Samoa, there were two harvesting times.Now the cacao.Fruits all year round, which you know on the surface sounds really great, but it mean it's not. It means the trees are really tired.Means that they're not fruiting all in one go. It's just sporadic fruit throughout the year, which means it's more cost.Having Labour throughout the year instead of just seasonal workers, so it affects everything. And that's because of the change, the changes that are happening in our seasons, in our rainy seasons are coming forward. There's so much more rain nowadays during our dry season and that's affecting our cacao and our supply chain.So.Like I guess for us understanding, respect and reciprocity.Continuing it from community to environment and from.Community and full into living cocoa is like, I guess we're living. Coco's journey actually starts like we.Understand and appreciate that our relationships.Continue with the shared valued approach. I can really soulful approach that is not driven just by profit, but also by working together to develop something that's sustainable and actually quite healing to not only the community but also to our lands back home like for us food as medicine and food ignites our DNA and connects us to our ancestors and our lands and our histories. And we work really hard to support food sovereignty in the Pacific islands.So food sovereignty for us is the right of peoples to have of indigenous peoples to have healthy and culturally appropriate food produced through ecologically sound and sustainable methods, and also our right to define our own food systems and agricultural systems. Our people have been on our lands for thousands of years and they know our lands intimately, so bringing foreign foods to be developed or monocopting can really destroy our ecosystems back home.And we understand that if we if our people activate our custodial lands with, you know, sustainable farming practises that honour the lands that will come through with the markets from Australia to support those farms and then the exports will increase in our village economies will be supported as well. So I guess at live in cocoa, we believe that together with indigenous knowledge and complementary production practises, we are able to sustainably offer our plant medicine and.Products to the world.Yeah, I had some photos to show you all, but that's not gonna help it. So I guess that's the universe speech.

576072292608Jane Frank 16:30I'll make sure that the progress get to them.

576072292608Phoebe Preuss - Living Koko (Guest) 16:30I'll make sure that I can get to them. Yeah, they should have.

576072292608Jane Frank 16:33They should not so.Did anyone have questions for Phoebe about her business?So, Phoebe, how? I'm just, you know, I mean, I've had a little bit to do with startup businesses, but must have been very challenging in the early stages to get your business off the ground. Did you and and there are obviously lots of layers of depth in terms of the sustainable kind of ways you've gone about running your business. Was that from the very get go that you were able to do all of that or is it, have you introduced at all incrementally? How does that work?

576072292608Phoebe Preuss - Living Koko (Guest) 17:08I think in hindsight year we introduced incrementally.You know, we did have a business plan model, but we didn't realise how big this was going to be.And how involved our communities back home were going to be as well, which has been a really beautiful and gentle process for us. You know it, I have to keep reminding myself I'm not selling Tik tacks. You know, I'm not just doing something basic and or buying something that's mass produced in overseas and that I don't get to physically touch myself like, our cacao is not just an ingredient. It's.A way of life back home. So that was huge for us to actually not huge for me, but definitely huge for my partner and my husband Glenn, who is balani. He's white, Australian and.It was hard for him to kind of get his head around. He had worked in such a Western context of transactional spaces in business and back home. It's all about relationships. If you don't have relationships and respect within your relationships, no one wants to do business with you.

576072292608Jane Frank 18:24Yes, please. Yeah, come over close. Ask just so that I know you've.Decided.

576072292608Phoebe Preuss - Living Koko (Guest) 18:31I.

576072292608Jane Frank 18:32Then I just have a quick question.

576072292608Phoebe Preuss - Living Koko (Guest) 18:39I can't hear you.

576072292608Jane Frank 18:40Sorry for being close again.

576072292608Phoebe Preuss - Living Koko (Guest) 18:42Sorry.

576072292608Jane Frank 18:44Hello, I'm Finn. I just had a quick question in regards to your sales like avenues, what's what, where do you like currently sell your products and where do you want your products to be sold in like is your end goal to be in Woolworths and the big retailers or you do you want to keep it on a small scale?

576072292608Phoebe Preuss - Living Koko (Guest) 19:06Yeah, I guess for us, we have to move at the capacity and the timing of Samoa as well like SAMU can't export.In their 40, Samu was exporting like 450 tonnes.Of cacao no sorry 450 containers. So in a container would be like 16 tonnes of cacao a year now it's.Doing 150 containers so.There was a huge so I'm getting to the I'm getting to your answer, but I just want to explain the reason why the the capacity in the islands drops because it's because of the labour drain. So that's what's happening now as well with a lot of our people coming to Australia for seasonal work.We there's very hard to find workers or labour people that want to activate their lands back home and it's the same thing that happened in the 50s, which is what affected the cacao exportation at Osama in the Pacific.We do not want to be in Woolworths at the moment. We're in smaller, we're in like specialty stores, organic stores here in Australia, New Zealand.Japan, we're also in all the duty free in the Pacific islands. Not all the Pacific islands in Fiji, Tonga, Samoor in Hawaii.But no Woolworths pushes down price too much and we wouldn't be able when you're working with 400 when you're working with 400 domestic, that's 400 families like which family do you go to to ask for a discount?It's not like I'm going to 1 plantation like there's many so and we're we're trying to stop poverty and you know, create self determination back home. We're paying like three times the amount that cacao is being paid for for in Papua New Guinea actually five times the amount of Papua New Guinea and.The Ivory Coast, which in Africa which?A lot of their a lot of their farmers are getting less than a dollar a day for their cacao, and that's not for a kilo. Like that's a dollar a day in payment.Really trying to lead the way in in paying our farmers the right amount and and then also showcasing that to the world and showing that there is a better way to do business that put people first.

576072292608Jane Frank 21:42I even got any questions about I know one of your assignment questions option.This is a very tough state business.Do you review your sustainability policies sort of regularly and sort of look at where else you can work towards achieving in terms of sustainability phobe.

576072292608Phoebe Preuss - Living Koko (Guest) 22:04Yeah. Yep. And I guess our sustainability models a bit different to.Like a lot of Australian businesses, like our sustainability model goes right back to we were getting our ingredients in the manufact well, the ingredients from Sam or not just sustainability in Australia.We are just coming up to our one year anniversary in our new manufacturing space. So we have a new factory here in Raven Hall and because we could kind of build that from the ground up.We put a lot of thought into the integrity of ensuring that it was sustainable.Zero waste and greenhouse and all that kind of stuff, I mean.Solar powered and things like that, but we do review it yearly and we're constantly updating like we review it yearly, but we never ourselves or our staff or we have friends that work in that sector, give us suggestions. We're always making plans on how to how to better the space.

576072292608Jane Frank 23:10OK, fantastic. And I'm imaging, do you have other family members that work in your business or is it mainly just non family members other than you and your husband?

576072292608Phoebe Preuss - Living Koko (Guest) 23:22In the Australian side to it.

576072292608Jane Frank 23:24I don't see. Neither do you have family working with you.

576072292608Phoebe Preuss - Living Koko (Guest) 23:28Yep. So in Samuel, we we do all the post harvesting processes on our family's plantation. So we used to do so. We have to, you have to ferment the beans and you have to dry the beans after you remove them from the pod.We were doing that within each village and trying to add value to to the, to the, to the value of the beans, but it was really hard for the quality.Consistency.To that process. So we moved all the post harvesting processes to our plantation back home. So I work closely with my cousin on that. We also supply our plantation supplies, Whittaker's chocolate for the cake salmon.Chocolate bar and yeah, a number of other spaces. So we realised that back home our plantation had you already had these contracts going and we were getting good value for our cacao.But what we also had was the.Firmament big, large fermentation boxes in the drying facilities so we could engage other small plot farmers to bring the cacao to us and we would do the fermentation and the drying we started.Running programmes, probably about four years before COVID hit teaching our youth groups on how to cultivate using indigenous cultivation practises.So via moon cycles and constellations and understanding movement of water during those times.This then helped us grow a large number of seedlings which we every year we give out free seedlings to anyone who wants to cultivate cacao.This has stopped the.Increase of price of cacao for our for the local market. So Sam was one of the very few countries that consumes more cacao than it actually exports.Cacao is our.It's our national drink.Before coffee and before tea, it's always a cup of cocoa so.To ensure that those prices were increasing crazily for the local market and we weren't taking kikka from the local market, we had to increase cacha cultivation. And so we started these programmes. So that was all done from my cousins and us going home every year 2, three times a year to manage them and and to make sure that they were done fairly and correctly.And we prioritise women when we give out those cacao seedlings, especially women, that partners are coming to Australia for seasonal work, we realise that.Some partners don't go home. Some partners start lives here in Australia.Or they go home and they have a huge influx of money and.A challenge with the financial planning.So.Before someone leaves to do seasonal work, which we know they're going to be away for about three years, we.Offer free cacao seedlings and we we go out there, we teach them about the cultivation of it, how to maintain them, and then after three years, when they come back from their seasonal work, there's a cash crop there and an ongoing business, a small micro business for them. And we have the market for it. And if they don't come back then then the woman's got her own personal micro business to continue.

576072292608Jane Frank 27:04Do you have outside help? Like do you have any advisory bodies or is it just your husband?

576072292608Phoebe Preuss - Living Koko (Guest) 27:11My mom. So I have a group of elders. I wouldn't say an advisory body. I have mentors that kind of help me navigate with some business system. But.I studied business management, accounting and business management and then my postgrad was community development. So there was a lot of things that I I guess I just learned from uni.But in the advisory group for what goes on the ground in Samoa, it's my mother and my auntie. So I guess I have an Advisory Board of elders that support our.Cacao movement and cultivation and.

576072292608Jane Frank 27:57That's fantastic. So lots of cultural sensitivity in the way you do business.

576072292608Phoebe Preuss - Living Koko (Guest) 28:02Oh yeah, yeah, lots.

576072292608Jane Frank 28:04I cried. Does anyone have questions? More questions for Phoebe? That'd be appreciated if you could ask her a question. It'd be great if you got any more questions.We've covered quite a few topics. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I think we.Yeah. What's special about running a family business, Phoebe? For you? You know, rather than just a business. Do you know what I mean? What makes it special? Because it's a family business.

576072292608Phoebe Preuss - Living Koko (Guest) 28:38Umm, I think what made it special. So even though living Coco on.A well, you know, was stood up in the Australian tax space in 2014 or 2015. I feel like living Cocos of has been going for many generations and my my family business is not just about the people I work with now, but also the incredible work my grandfather did.As the high chief, like a lot of these farmers, wouldn't even look at us if it wasn't for my mother's maiden name. If it wasn't for the Stanley name, which was my grandfather's name, if it wasn't for him and him holding his chief title.None of these people would have looked our way. They would have closed the door. It didn't matter if they were going to make money or not, so it was that working of family business has really shown me the weight of my surname.Well, my family name on our custodial lands and also.Just how that?How if one person is?Doing incredible work two or three generations ago. That respect continues today and is passed down.I think.Running a family business is really hard 'cause. Also, there's a lot of, you know, family trauma, especially on our village spaces. You know, I think we're really blessed as people who live in Australia. If we decide that we wanna move suburbs or move cities, we can save up some money and we can. But back home, that's not necessarily an option. So running this family business and doing it in a really gentle and culturally respectful approach has.Support a lot of healing within our family, within our village space, Umm also brought out the right acknowledgments to.Yeah.To the generations and and elders that needed and ancestors that needed to be acknowledged before we could even move forward. So yeah, I don't know if that answers your question. It's kind of complex.

576072292608Jane Frank 30:58That.I was also wondering, have you received recognition in Australia for the work you're doing?

576072292608Phoebe Preuss - Living Koko (Guest) 31:06And.

576072292608Jane Frank 31:07In terms of what you're doing with the business?

576072292608Phoebe Preuss - Living Koko (Guest) 31:09We've just won bronze in the clean and Conscious awards and then tomorrow we go to we're finalists in the Mountain Business Awards so.We'll find out tomorrow if we win something there.Getting recognition and applying for awards feels like you're writing war and peace like you're. It's like another full time job just trying to apply for awards. So it's an interesting space that we've just kinda started to move into, realising that we've done all this work that need needs a platform to be showcased.So maybe ask me that question in a years time and and I'll let you know.

576072292608Jane Frank 31:50He's just been running, baby. Just remind me.

576072292608Phoebe Preuss - Living Koko (Guest) 31:54It stood up in 2015, I think from memory, but.We I guess I went full time in the business once COVID hit, so it was kind of like a we, me and Glenn had our full time jobs and my job was arts festivals. I was hardly ever in Melbourne for long periods of time and then COVID stopped a lot of that. So COVID gave me an opportunity to really focus.

576072292608Jane Frank 32:05Yeah.

576072292608Phoebe Preuss - Living Koko (Guest) 32:26On living cocoa. So what happened was that we started that programme of giving out free seedlings.About 3 1/2 years, four years before COVID hit, and then when COVID hit or tourism ended in some more or in the Pacific, and everyone turned back to the land. So when we went from bringing in 300 kilos a year of cacao to Australia, it went from that to 7000 kilos because there was people were harvesting and they wanted money for it. And so now that's continued because they realised that there's a market that will show up for for their cocoa.

576072292608Jane Frank 33:06Baby, it's been really interesting and fascinating to hear about your family's journey with your business and the incredible links that you have with Samara and the Pacific. So would everyone like to show their appreciation to Phoebe? Thank you.The students will need to go to the next class, but thank you so much, Phoebe. And it's been really lovely to. I'll just move you around. It's been lovely to connect with you and you know, get to hear your story. And I look forward to following your businesses journey and seeing where it takes you next. It sounds like you're doing an incredible thing. And I love the concept. And I I can't wait to try the products now.

576072292608Phoebe Preuss - Living Koko (Guest) 33:48Thanks, Doctor Jade, I appreciate that. It's really nice to connect with you too.

576072292608Jane Frank 33:53I'm happy with the of the day and we look forward to staying in touch with you. Thank you so much for being bye.

576072292608Phoebe Preuss - Living Koko (Guest) 33:57OK. Thank you. Bye, bye.

621792274320Phoebe Preuss - Living Koko (Guest) left the meeting

621792274320Jane Frank stopped transcription